Follow on my last thread problem. I hired a new girl, and she is fantastic! She loves to work and always comes in on time. She even told me I was her favorite employer (aww).

My last employee, was the problem. She's a student and is going home for the Summer. I thought I'd get off easy by just not giving her any hours when she gets back in town. Until she asked me, "So, I'll see you next Fall, right?" I cringed and didn't know how to handle the situation, so I said, "sure." Then she said, "great! I'm going ot miss my Sundays in the store." I thought to myself: yeah right if you even showed up.

Here's the question: How do I pleasantly fire her when she comes back to town? Do I lie and tell her that I just can't afford another employee? She will see that I have a full time girl and know that is a lie. How do I handle this?

On a side note. This problem employee almost always called in sick or had some kind of problem. She had subtly insulted my buying (said she didn't like most of my inventory) and I even suspect that she has stolen around $130.00 worth of lingerie and swimwear. That I know of. She did have nice things about her. She was excellent at selling my lingerie to customers. Oftentimes she even made more money for me than I would have made had I been there. She dressed well and was very pleasant to all of my customers. She is a very pretty girl and has an upbeat attitude. But her bad traits far outweigh her good. And I have saved myself a ton of stress since she has been away.

Thanks in advance for any advice. Thanks again my fellow entrepreneurs, you're the best!

I'm the Melissa with the lingerie store. Here is the link to my other thread.
http://www.businessownersideacafe.com/cyberschmooz/thedailygrind/845.html

Didn't want you to confuse me with the other Melissas on the board.

First of all, lets clear something up. You are not obligated to hiring this young lady back because you said to her that you would. By law, there is not obligation to hold her job open. Business does change over time. It gets slower or whatever the case may be. So you can let her know if/when she comes back that you are not hiring at that moment but will keep her in mind if a position becomes available. Secondly, you should not want to hire her anyway. Especially if you suspect her of stealing money from you. All her good qualities went out the window when you mentioned that. If there is one thing that will kill employment and possibly land someone in jail it's stealing from the business. If business owners cannot get away with taking from their own company a worker definately should not. My advice is to let her know if/when you see her again that you're not interested in her services right now and keep the one you got if she's working out for you.

Just tell her you no longer have a position for her. Dont get into why sometimes that can lead to legal problems. Oh this assumes you are in a will to work state.

But I would not wait. This could lead to hard feelings. Send her a note or call her up and tell her. Otherwise she may come back in the fall and never be able to get a job.

I would never keep an employee which I did not trust though. She effectivily quit so you avoid unemployeement.

As the posts above have mentioned as well as you that you no longer want this employee. It seems that you have a hard time however standing firm on your actions. You are the manager and are responsible for your store. My advice...write a nice letter informaing her that her "services" will no longer be needed and that you have filled all the available positions. She voluntarily quit for the summer so you dont have to hire her back. However letting her know that you will not be needing her in the fall will send her searching elsewhere for a job. The letter will give her time to search and that it will not be a surprise when you dont hire her in the fall.
Good luck
Topher

>My last employee, was the problem. She's a student and is going home for the Summer. I thought I'd get off easy by just not giving her any hours when she gets back in town. Until she asked me, "So, I'll see you next Fall, right?" I cringed and didn't know how to handle the situation, so I said, "sure."

>Here's the question: How do I pleasantly fire her when she comes back to town?

>On a side note. problem employee. She did have nice things about her. She was excellent at selling my lingerie to customers. Often times she even made more money for me than I would have made had I been there. She dressed well and was very pleasant to all of my customers.

~~~

This is what I would do ...

Write a Letter of Termination ... If you do a net search for "termination letter" you get some good samples to follow. Make sure all the facts and 'legal' consequences are taken care of. In Canada, we have to also provide a 'Record of Employment' (ROE) that is sent to the government, to indicate date started work, date stopped work, and reason. Do you USA'ers do the same thing? Inconspicuously mark the reason of termination as either 'Other-Left Town For Summer' or 'Laid Off-No Work'. Then, mail her this letter.

When she calls you, just tell her that you thought this would "help" her in making a unemployment insurance benefit claims - if she had plans to do so, and leave it at that. If she asks what you mean, just blame it on the accountant. And, wish her a happy summer. If she comes back in the fall, just explain that she was laid off, and her position was filled, and there is no opening at the time, but you will keep her in mind.

Take care.
HART

>Write a Letter of Termination ...
>Do you USA'ers do the
>same thing? Inconspicuously mark the reason
>of termination as either 'Other-Left Town
>For Summer' or 'Laid Off-No Work'.
>Then, mail her this letter.

We in the usa do not send notification like you do. We just stop paying income tax on them and the gov figures out that they are no longer with us.

Another possible difference is that WE pay for our own unemployment insurance. It is maditory (in most cases) but it is not provided by the gov. So if they follow your advice they are going to pay in the form of higher insurance premiums.

The employee was not "terminated" she quit. If she is terminated she may be due unemployment income. But if she quits she is not. Barring any extream case such as sexual harrassment.

So the owner should never put "termination" on any paper.

She quit. They are just wondering about rehighering.

Thanks for all of your helpful responses. I was going to write a letter until she called me and was asking about a bikini that she had bought from me. I then told her that I had to "fill" her spot because I could not keep her hours open to her while she was away from town. This didn't seem to be enough information for her, she told me that she had felt betrayed that I would fill her hours. I told her that there was no hard feelings, I just really needed the help. After a lengthly conversation, I ended up giving her an excuse that my other employee wanted to be sure that she had her hours set in for the Fall before she agreed to work Sundays (not true). I feel REALLY STUPID that I lied to her. But she was "so upset," and wanted an excuse. She at times has this kind of drama queen personality. For example, when I tried to let her go months ago she almost cried and practically begged me to give her another shot (she showed up an hour late the next week).

She told me that she was an awesome employee to me, and would have worked whenever I needed her. She said that she did incredible in sales, and that she feels that I am making a mistake by letting her go. She told me that she will be back in the Fall to further talk to me about getting at least a day of the week on schedule.

I am so fed up with this girl. The only thing good she did for my business was her sales. Otherwise, she was constantly late, and most of the time she was scheduled called in sick. If that wasn't bad enough, she'd tell me she didn't like most of my buying (like I mentioned before).

I put up with this for a full year, and no way am I going to put up with it again. I feel like I may have to tell her when she returns for Fall, that part of the reason I let her go was her irresponsible attitude toward work. I hate to do that because she creates a lot of business for me, all of her friends (including herself) are very well off, and love to use their daddy's credit cards. I think it's time for me to get tough, this is "my" business. I have always felt that it was arrogant to be late or call in sick too often. That shows me that she feels that her time is more important than my own, and I cannot put up with an employee like that.

Thanks for all of your help again. I think the only thing I can do now is that when she does come back try to be cordial and make my coversations with her short and to the point. This is what I did wrong in my last conversation with her.

Melissa - you need to remember that you are the boss and you own the business. You make the decisions, as long as you do so legally. You are not obligated to lie to anyone or to make excuses. You make the decisions that are in the best interest of your business. It sounds as though you may have a hard time with conflict of any kind. However, conflict is part of life. Just remember that you are in charge, not your former employee. You don't have to listen to her complaints or whining. You can kindly let her know that you no longer have a position for her and that is the end of the discussion.

Melissa -
Heck yes! I'm with GT, and if you can't talk to her, write it all down. You have time to get it right.

If you are honest with employees and upfront about your needs
then you won't be put into this situation again. If you haven't
been clear with her, then how is she supposed to know that she
hasn't been the perfect employee.

Of course as I write this I remember how many former
employees that I ended up firing because I wasn't clear with
them and how can they "fix" something they don't know is
broken.. If you start out correcting things before they get out of
hand then you will be much happier in the long run. My new
receptionist looked like she wasn't going to work out, until I had
a long talk with her. She has really turned around and I am
thrilled with her work. I just needed to be clear about my
expectations.

>If you are honest with employees and
>upfront about your needs then you
>won't be put into this situation
>again. If you haven't been
>clear with her, then how is
>she supposed to know that she
>hasn't been the perfect employee.

that we as business owners we should have to explain to employees that we expect them to be punctual? How often should we have to explain this to our employees? If you read the original post carefully you will see the distress in the post. They comment that the employee will often show up very late or not at all.

I know HOW annyoying and how frustrating employees can be
that don't follow basic rules, being on time, not talking on cell
phones at work etc etc.

But....I do think it is the responsibility of the employer, if an
employee has been late to point it out and say that it is
unacceptable. Especially with younger staff they do not
understand that being late is unacceptable. Over the course of
my years in business I have had many employees where it was
their first job. And if you are late to class in college, you just
sneak in the back row.

I make sure that if it happens once I let them know it is
unacceptable, it continues to happen after a few times I give
them a final warning and then when I do fire them, it has not
been a surprize from anyone. I explain that our schedules
depend on people being on time and this might not be the right
job for them.

In general the younger the employee the harder it is to get them
to understand this.

But my post also referred to basically everything that the person
will be doing. I have employee guidelines that I read through
with my employees on their first day. Basic stuff that shouldn't
have to be gone over, but I read it through ask if they have any
questions, and then I have them sign it and it goes into thier file
along with everything else. So if for some reason I need to fire
them, I have written documentation that I have discussed my
requirements with them.

Some things I have on it are:
Being on time
Calling in if you are going to be late or are sick.
Being honest
Not stealing
Breaks and Lunch Breaks
Material Safety Data Sheets (I'm a jeweler and we use 1 chemical
where this is required)
Salaries (not discussing salaries with anyone else)

Many items seem so basic, but since I have them all detailed out
then there is no question whether or not it is necessary.

They comment that the
>employee will often show up very
>late or not at all.

I did read through the original post and I read throught the
follow ups too. I read a lot of things
that sound like she didn't ever really confront the employee.
That is my assumption since she was still working there after the
employer suspected her of stealing and she was continually late.
So be clear and fire if it isn't working, don't just put it off until
they leave town for summer vacation.

My feeling is if she had been clear and confronted the employee
directly her stress level would actually have gone down and the
employee would not have questioned why she was getting fired
out of the blue. In general I feel so much better when I get it off
my chest to the right person.

By keeping this employee on and putting up with her behavior for a year, the employer was, in essence, telling her that it was OK to be late, OK to be disrespectful, OK to call in sick, etc.

A warning should have been given and the employee should have been let go a long time ago if it was best for business.

Crying and begging for another chance shouldn't come into play.

Sounds like this employee was too immature for the work world.

But, on the other hand, it's important to let this employee know WHY. No, it's not required for an employer to let the employee know why. But are you doing her any favors not hiring her back and telling her the bogus reason?

She's going to be out there in the work world, thinking her behavior was just dandy.

If you tell her the reasons you won't rehire her, she can think about it and maybe she'll realize, "Hey, maybe I goofed up at this place and I should try harder next time I get a job."

Okay I am in total agreement with GT here.

Business is business. When did you become the confident and friend to this employee (because like it or not, she does not see you as the boss).

I fear you are repeating yourself again with the new employee saying that you are her favorite employerr and your response to that was "awwww"(interpreted as ...how sweet) No.

This is not a popularity contest. Though it is a compliment to be told that you are a great boss, it is a caution of the level of personal that you are on with this new employee.

I think you need to figure out why these people respond to you the way they do. I am not meaning for you to be nasty and an ogre, but a boss is a boss just like a mom isnt a best friend to their teenage kidlet.

Old habits repeat themselves unless we learn from it. I think it is worth considering why employees act like this with you.

I walk the fine line myself (makes it easy to see it in others). Please be careful, it can be costly to the business.

Good Luck and keep us posted.
Cynthia

It's true that my employee problems may have something to do with me being too nice to my employees. I know that there are some things I need to work on as an employer. I tend to be a little too chatty with my employees, letting them know what's going on in my personal life (my sister's baby, my trip to Vegas, etc.) I oftentimes relay crazy stories about other customers that is very unprofessional to do with an employee. Of course, when no one is in the store. I think that could be something that a fellow employee would talk about with her, not the business owner. Almost always after my conversations I think "I shouldn't have said this and that, and she didn't need to know this.." With my last employee I admitted an extremley embarrassing little fact about myself. Talk about not knowing when to bite your tongue!

I had this amazing boss when I was working for minimum wage in a toy store a few years back. She would buy me coffee and make sure I was comfortable before I started work, she would chat with me about her personal life too, and she would ask my advice about how to run the store. I loved her so much that I would work off the clock, happily. I even came up with some no cost advertising methods for the toystore. I wanted to be a friendly boss just like her. I thought our employee/boss relationship was perfect!

As for the employee that I let go, I let her know that I needed her on time. I also said, "but in the rare case that if you have a test that you need to study for or have some sort of emergency it will be no problem." She took full advantage of this when she would call in sick to work, she had many reasons some of them that are totally ridicuous! One time she went as far to tell me that she was hungover. I would make comments to her like this: She would say "I can't come in today, is that okay?" I would say (angry and disapointed sounding as I could)"I guess it's going to have to be." I thought that would be enough. I would have shook in my shoes if my old toystore boss used that tone with me. As for a warning? I thought that taking her back the first time I went to let her go would be good enough. When I told her that I wasn't going to fire her I said, "you will have to come in on time from now on." The next time she was scheduled to work she was an hour or more late, her parents were in town was the excuse this time.

The wierd thing about the girl that I just let go, was that all of her former employers said she was so fantastic! She worked at a shoe store, and he just went on and on about her personality and how excellent she was with the customers. He said that he didn't remember if she had called in sick, and was never late.

My new employee is the polar opposite from the last. Her personality is totally different. She's a lot more introverted but comes in on time and has never called in sick yet. I think that she is going to work out.

I've cut back on the chatter with my new girl. I'm still pleasant to her, but I don't give her free things all the time. She still gets many freebies, but no where near the amount I gave to my last employee. Still, she does things that irritate me, and I hope they don't get out of hand. I have seen her talk on the phone to her friends when customers are in the store. She complains, A LOT. I have her working for commission and she was watching the sidewalk sale (sitting on a stool in partial shade with bottled water that I gave her)and she was complaining all day about the heat. I suspect her of stealing one pair of panties, that I can't proove but am 99.9% positive she took them. (I even saw them peeking out of her pants.)

It's very possible that I need help with how to handle employees. I hate to admit that I'm not the best socially and oftentimes say more about my personal and business life that I would like to say. I wonder what kind of a message I send to my employees. I also wonder how could I be such a great employee to my boss, and I do everything almost the same as my boss, but yet I get crap back. What am I doing differently than my old toystore boss? Do successful bosses have to hold down a cold and stern "get the work done" attitude? Is it possible that I am just a poor judge of character? How confusing all of this is!

Again I appreciate that this board is here. I have learned so much from it. And I know, I am not all innocent in this. I know that a huge part could be a result of my personality.

I personally think you took the wrong lesson from your experience with your former employer. You only worked off of the clock PARTIALLY because the boss was nice to you, got you coffee, and made sure you were comfortable.

The real reason you worked off the clock is the reason you have your own business; you're a self starter who believes in giving every effort to get the job done. Your boss being nice to you just made it more worthwhile to you.

Someone who is lazy, whiney, or dishonest will only feel more free to be lazy, whiney, or dishonest with a "nice boss." What is really happening is the "nice boss" is keeping a hard, honest worker from enjoying an opportunity in her store by allowing a lazy, whiney, and/or dishonest worker to continue to hold a spot they are unwilling to earn.

I think you might do better to think more about that honest worker out there that is left deprived of an opportunity, and less about the dishonest one inside who is squandering it.

Once you have selected someone new, and they have proved their character through their performance, then be "nice" to them all you want.

I really think it is better to keep open and personal discussions with the other staff, and I don't find the talking about your sister's baby or your Vegas trip the problem ... (unless your sister would object if she knew that). It's just the two of you in the store, and you have to relate to each other as individuals and persons, and that's what two individuals often talk about - personal things.

But .... under no circumstances can you let your employees talk down, or make fun of any customers under any situation, even if they are deadbeats. You have to immediately take off the "I'm your Friend, that's funny" hat and put on your "Hey! I'm your boss and that's unacceptable!" hat.

If you even casually or jokingly make fun of your customers, you are putting out the message that it's okay to have an opinion about your customers ... when, in fact there shouldn't be any other opinion, except of the company's opinion - that being that your customers are number one.

This might be a reason why your new employee doesn't immediately hang up the phone when talking to her friends, because she doesn't exactly respect your customers 100%.

The good news, is that this can get better if you consciously take the lead and make sure it gets better. If you are talking to her, and a customer walks in - don't just wait for her to deal with them - maybe hang up the phone yourself, or stop the conversation immediately and get up off your chair and serve your customer. Soon your employee will pick this up, and not just because it's her job to do it.

As for the stealing of the pair of panties, you sound like you do not have a clear policy about that either. You say you "don't give her free things all the time. She still gets many freebies, but no where near the amount I gave to my last employee." ... I would come up with a firm store policy .. either stop giving her free stuff and just give her an employee discount and deduction off her next paycheque, or make a list and hang it in the employee lounge room, what is "ok" to take.

Often, you see businesses overstocking their office supply filing cabinet with very cheap, but useful stuff - maybe with stickum notes and pens - just so the employees can steal them. They like to think they deserve to take them, without really thinking what they plan to do with a bunch of stickums and pens. It's a lot cheaper to just let them think they are getting away with something, and be happy, than thinking they are being used and unhappy and do lousy at their job, or deal with the customers or clients in an unhappy mood.

What I am trying to suggest is ... well, a few free panties sounds like a cheap way to keep the new employee happy .... instead of accusing the employee, or wasting your time trying to figure out that last 0.1% to be 100% sure ... Life's too short and your not focusing on the bottom line if you spend too much time saving $5.00 instead of spending time on preserving a happy customer for life with good service from a happy employee.

And if you want a suggestion ... print out these two threads, go buy a 3-ring binder and paper, make a pot of coffee on a quiet weekend, and write an employee manual with a list of all of the things you expect from an employee, and a list of things that are unacceptable behavior of your employee. When you have a good enough draft, ask your employee to 'proof read' it before you get it printed and bound....

Take care.
HART

Don't get into any grey areas here or emotional responses. She quit and said she would be looking to be rehired in the fall. If there are no openings there are no openings. Giving other reasons will open a can of worms and get here to maybe file a complaint against your company with government resources. END OF STORY. For future reference with employees.3 chances first verbal warning. then written warning then fire. This covers you and clearly explains the reason.

Daryl Des Marais
www.usabusinessgrowth.com
"Growing Small Business"

You had better have that in your handbook. If you do not you may find yourself in trouble still.

Remember-It's not PERSONAL, it's business.

>Remember-It's not PERSONAL, it's business.

I was looking for an assistant last year to help us input the books, do filing, general sales help in the store and a friend of ours was looking for some work to help pad her financial situation.

I hired her.

Well, she was fine for a day. Then, she was an hour late. She didn't show up, called in sick on the Wednesday, came very late on Thursday. She was given a warning on that date that we needed her to actually be at work and on time. Well, on Friday, she didn't show at all, and I started working myself up for firing her when she showed up Monday morning.

I was really nervous, butterflies in my stomach. I really didn't feel good. Especially because I like the girl and she needs the money. But, I needed a good assistant more.

Needless to say, she saved me a headache.

She called in late on Monday morning... And I told her not to bother coming in at all.

I'd worked firing her up into being a big deal. And the funny thing was the last words I said to her on the topic were "It's not personal, it's business."

I don't think I'll have such a difficult time firing the next one; I just hope I never see the time come, though.

T

VP Marketing
Brooks Pepperfire Foods
http://www.peppermaster.com

"It's not personal, it's only business."

Enough said. Fire her, find someone new. The problem with "businessmen" today is that they are wimps. **** your employee, if she doesn't perform, get rid of her and find somoene new. Since when is business about feelings and personal crap, just fire her. You're supposed to be making money and having less problems. Pick up your skirt and your balls, and make a real decision you wimp.

Am I the only one that thinks more was going on here than was mentioned?
Me thinks there is more to this story. If not. Fire her!

>Am I the only one that thinks
>more was going on here than
>was mentioned?Me thinks there is more
>to this story. If not. Fire
>her!

Well, I don't know about more going on there with Melissa and her employee but I manage a dental office with a aged scheduling coordinator who just can't get it together with new technology and our new office policies. I have a great list of potential replacements but the dentists who own the practice are afraid to fire her because they think all the patients will sya "How could you fire that nice old lady? SHe was always so sweet."
Actually she's a lying incompetent who refuses to change her ways and work with new management. What I would like to have is an accountability statement of some kind. Like when you schedule a patient for a check up just to "fill a hole" even though they have a past due balance and this is strictly agains office policy, there should be some form of accountability for breaking the rules. Financial? Cut their hours? Give a warning the next time they are fired? Any forms our there or ideas? Thanks

First off, you are under NO legal obligation to re-hire this girl or to hold her job for her. If you still feel bad for going aginast your word and decide to take her back in the fall...doit on a "trial basis." Do regular employee evaluations, make employees account for stock...when she doesn't come out clean, fire her.

-Nichole
Paineless Solutions Business Consulting
PainelessSolutions@yahoo.com