I was hoping that someone here could tell me if there is a website devoted to the policing of "Inventors help" companies.Someone that could tell you if a company has a good or bad reputation.I was once ripped off for both my money and idea by one such place and don`t want to fall victim again.

There sure is: www.inventored.org

You'll find many companies and persons at

www.inventored.org/caution/extreme
and
www.inventored.org/caution/watch

We've about twenty more companies and some persons to add to it when our volunteer website cleaner-upper gets done behind the scenes.

Who would you like to know about dear. If they operate in the U.S., UK, Canada, or Australia the chances are real good I've already researched them and would be happy to drive you to links containing articles and corroborative docs about them.

PJ,thanks for responding,one is a company from Australia,Royal Ideas and Inventions,and the other is 1 or more individuals that I would rather discuss via e-mail.sbeachstones@wmconnect.com.Thanks again,and look forward to discussing with you.Scott

thanks for responding,one is a company from Australia,Royal Ideas and Inventions..
================================================

They are the list...run a mile in the opposite direction.

Will email you as advised.

just want 2 know if you can email me that list two please
midswan1@bigpond.com

Hi there I have just been told that Royal Ideas and Inventions like my Invention but they have asked me to pay them $17950.00 to help with the promotion ect for my idea. Are they a scam? Please let me know as I have not paid the money to them yet.
Kind Regards
Marie

Marie,sorry for the late response(computer down),all I`ve been told about them is to run very far,very fast,in basic terms........thanks for all of your help on this posting folks.

how did you go with your idea did you get it back and did they steal it ?

Hey...
Found you at CyberSchmooz. Can you tell me if Inventsai is a good company? I have an invention and say they can get me to marketing....but of course there is a risk....
Any info you could give me would be helpful.

Thanks,

Linda

http://members.aol.com/icgc/mcneely.htm

Thanks,I`ll look into it.Scott

Scott,

Are you looking for marketing companies in AUS? If so, your largest city would be where in relation to you.

I'll go through my AUS databases and see if I can find you someone. Minimally your closest non-profit would know. Be sure they work on a contingency.

PJ

I too have had Royal tell me they love my idea and want over $17k.

If anybody has specific experience with them, please let me know.

Are there any more legitimate companiues in Australia?

thanks

P

Marie and Paul:

Firstly, why on earth would one pay a company that much money (Marie) to "protect" an idea since "ideas" alone are not protectable!!!

Secondly, paying up-front to an "invention submission company" for "marketing" and "patenting" is throwing monies down a drain.

Instead, get the facts about their "marketing" efforts which usually consist of:

1. Press release spammed to free "post your press release" sites and emailed to editors - who give a hoot. Why do they give a hoot? When they see the same sender's name on thousands upon thousands of envelopes they go in the rubbish as spam for they all contain the same boilerplate letters. Same old, same old.

2. Alleged booth at trade shows where thousands of those press releases are bunched into fat binders - awaiting walk-by traffic to flip-through them. Yeah, right!

Consider acquiring "marketing" specifics first: what, when, where, how etc.,

Consider carefully reading their "legal" contract stipulating what they agree to do.

Consider acquiring a list of successfully licensed inventions that you can verify through either the inventor(s) or company(ies).

I am looking at a copy of their contact called their "Submission Agreement." It is generic boilerplate with several "weasel" words that could be interpreted one way or the other. Anyone who signs such nonsense without taking it to a lawyer has to have corrupted mental chips.

The "marketing" model these outfits use to reel inventors in (initial bait swollowed called a marketing research "Portfolio" or "Prospectus" or a "Marketing Reports" (composed of generic research found freely on the web). Others include a free (or must pay for) patent search (usually four patents demonstrating how patentable the invention is - - - 'nothing like it'). Models used can be boiled down to two types:

Model 1: Spam manufacturers and others with a press release and (possibly) a computer generated brochure or sometimes an 8 x 11.5 sheet with a
3-D CAD invention image. When it arrives it issummarily "tossed"; that is, "if" it arrives (a fair percent are undeliverable others go to manufacturers and supply line partners without matching tooling or services compatible with the invention/product)…….. and so on and so forth.

Model 2. Mail inventor's 125 to 250 labels containing names/addresses of manufacturers and supply line partners. Inventor's provide envelopes and stamps then mail a boilerplate introduction letter (explaining invention provided by the "marketing" company) usually including a graphic of the invention (home computer looking CAD image). In Royal's case they put a homespun catchy spin to the above by stating, "ROYAL packages the benefits of your idea and translates them in marketing information. This report is like a Resume, it emphasizes the positive features of your idea and we may suggest modifications in designs, selection of materials, or any other creative marketing approaches. This marketing report then becomes a "Reference Tool" to present to Industry. In this manner, we begin to "package" your invention so that a manufacturer can quickly understand its major features."

Let me point out there is great danger in what Royal suggests it does in term of their making "modifications":
www.inventored.org/coinvention

Such companies accept "all" submissions even though they say, (a) we only accept three or four new inventions per year, or (b) we only accept inventions we've "evaluated" have potential.

If inventors have the money these companies accept 100% of them.

Those so-called "manufacturing lists" are generic. I just finished an audit on two. Each inventor (went to same company) was issued a 2" binder of manufacturers, suppliers, distributors, and even contact info for residences and persons not in business. A load of junk. See - www.inventored.org/SIC-code-scam

If any "marketing" company is that convinced on an invention's potential, why wouldn't it put up its money for all those who have no money but who allegedly have great inventions with much promise? The answer is obvious.

One major problem with all these types of companies is that it takes two years for the inventor to realise no results are what they bought but by the time it hits them, their contracts are up and its too late to fight back.

One had to demand performance "milestones" in any contract. On the other hand, according to Royal's contract it only makes an, "attempt to market and to license them."

Get that? "Attempts"!

The type of lists or contacts one should be seeking are companies with tooling/packaging in one's field having a track record of licensing and willing to work with inventors; few and far between. Mailing so-called "contract" manufacturers (pay us per job) is the wrong type of manufacturer and/or mailing distributors (accept inventory/store in their warehouses) or suppliers (usually they do not accept inventory but submit orders)is also incorrect.

When taking the licensing versus self-Venture route to reach qualified potential licensee manufacturers, the approach these companies take is all wrong. If they had reputable licensee manufacturer contacts in the first place, all they would do is to pick up a phone, schedule a demonstration (some agents have quarterly appointments preestablished). It is that simple!

One either knows who wants what or one does not. Invention submission companies do not know hence they come up with these silly, "we'll market your invention particulars because you're too much of twit to do it on your own" but you'll pay us handsomely for the pleasure - Chumps!

Thanks for this. I had no intention of going with them anyway. What initially threw me was that a friend who had dealt with them had his ideas rejected - twice. One is now a product so they are not that good a judge.

In any event, when this page is indexed by google it will help a lot of others hopefully..

My questions are HOW and WHAT do I do if I have a great invention with no funds available?.I can borrow money for a patent($6000).What do I do after that?. Do I need an investor?, how do I find a manufacturer? So you have any sugestions?
Kind Regards

Hey there Marie,

Glad you found this discussion thread.

U wrote: My questions are HOW and WHAT do I do if I have a great invention with no funds available?

* There are books available at your local library and visit your local nonprofit inventors group.

U wrote: I can borrow money for a patent($6000).What do I do after that?

* Goodness no! A Utility patent takes around two/three to issues (provides legal Rights). Besides which, patents are put in frames and displayed on walls or desks: they don't make you money intially. Sales make money.

* If you have to be concerned with borrowing, you'd best work up a business plan to determine costs and how you are going to get your monies back. Get creative. Besides which, you never pay $6000! Insider tip follows: if you are willing to act as Pro Se (representing yourself) or even if you use a retired patent examiner you shouldn't expect to pay more than $1,500-$2,500. One usually must pay separately for formal "patent-style drawings" and the patent office Filing fee which this year, for a Utility patent is $500 for a small entity (for a single person or company of under 500.

U wrote: Do I need an investor?

* Depends on whether you plan to take (a) self-Venture route, or the (b) Licensing route to commercialization. If you have no money, I doubt you have money for (c) a business plan let alone a mold (unless each unit must be fabricated)to get a mass production run going.

I suggest at this point you read a few books; start researching pricing and acceptable packaging/labeling of similar products, plus you'd need a SKU, shipping, returns handling, insurance, city/county licesing fees, an accounting program, etc. I suspect the self-Venture route may be a tough without a tidy budget (where investors come into play). Why don't you get five hundred made, then get out and get them sold - -> a gauge of "want" and an opportunity to play around with pricing, that is, as long as friends/family are not the buyers.

* If you take the (b) Licensing route to commercialization, the other fellow handles manufacturing and other costs. What you'll is several quality prototypes demonstrating workability. You'll also need to demonstatable evidence of a huge market, and perhaps even the potential to acquire a strong patent (sometimes)and not let's forget where the sales will come from (market segments) The manufacturer/distributor will invest his equipment, tooling, resources, monies etc to bring the product to market.

* If a prior art patent search indicates a strong possibility your device is patentable, only then you consider applying for a patent.

Rights accompany only "issued" patents so licensing agreements may depend on whether a patent issues and how closely to your original design (legal Claims may limit what can be practiced without infringing another's/others patents). His goal is to make money and/or gain market share but first he has to break even. With a strong patent he can control (if he so chooses) who enters the marketplace (copy-cats).

U wrote: how do I find a manufacturer?

* You visit your local Small Business Development Council if you can afford to take the self-Venture route. If you can't you wouldn't be worrying about manufacturing, packaging, sales, shipping etc.

* If you can only raise $5,000 that may not be enough for a quality mold but it might buy you a cheaper one with a short run life. But then you have the above plus items to buy too (packaging, etc). You have to have a SKU if you expect to sell to medium/large retailers; whereas, if you'd only sell at swap meets or mom/pop stores, a SKU woulnd't usually be an issue.

* Mfgs for large runs can be found at the thomasregister.com or visit your local Small Business Development Coucil for help and don't forget the mfging section of your local Yellow Pages.

U wrote: So you have any sugestions?

I don't get you know what you're doing in business yet. I suggest you concern yourself with business basics first then move into development and production issues - if you opt for the self-Venture route which is where you stand to keep the lion's share of any profits for the licensing route is based usually on royalties.

Licensingguru@yahoo.com

Hi there thank you for your quick response,I live in Australia and have visited the site that you gave me but it is in USA.I am truly at a now as I thought that would help me.Oh I wish I just had someone who was honest enough to help me and not rip me off as I know my idea will truly sell.So what do I do first?I will have to protect my idea,then find a manufacturer,how about if I attend an expo?after I have a prototype?would that help? Once again I Thank you very much for your help.
Kind Regards
Marie

U: I live in Australia and have visited the site that you gave me but it is in USA.

* But, but, but...Marie, maybe you do not realize that Aus and the US along with many other countries subscribe to the same intellectual property treaties and usually the same guidelines for bringing products to market. Unfix yourself from thinking in a box, there are no borders dear when it comes to moving products into the marketplace.

U: I am truly at a now as I thought that would help me.Oh I wish I just had someone who was honest enough to help me and not rip me off as I know my idea will truly sell.

* I suspect you seek "instant" gratification dear. Look, if an entity is operating in Australia, Canada, UK, or the US I know who they are so stop your worrying and pay attention to what I am writing. I need to know which area of Aus you are in (your closest city within 50-miles).

U: So what do I do first?

* You take a deep breath and relax. You also keep away from so-called "invention submission companies" who claim they'll market one's concept/invention to companies. Outfits such as Royal Inventions; Invention Submission Corporation; Innovation Connections and others who operate in Aus. They all want sizeable chunks of money up-front. Send me closest city and I will send you contact info a nonprofit inventors group there.

* The first thing you do is "not" put any protection on your concept or invention until I understand what stage it is in. Answer the following questions:
(a) Do you have a working prototype?
(b) Have you offered it/they for sale? Sold any? Made any public disclosures about it?
(c) Have you received favourable results from a prior art patent search, yet? If so, was it a written legal opinion or not? (you do not have an application written without first knowing (a) your invention (if you have one versus a concept) meets statutory patentability guideliens (b) might be patentable in the first place.

U: I will have to protect my idea,then find a manufacturer,how about if I attend an expo?

* If it is a seasonal product or perhaps even a toy or a game, you may not need to protect it by applying for a patent which takes years in some caes. The reason has to do with the shelf life of the product being short. Instead you spend monies on marketing to create sales.
As to finding a mfg, indicative of your deciding to take the (a) self-Venture route over the (b) Licensing Route to commercialisation. Correct?
In other words, you have a healthy budget to mass produce the item and handle being in business for one year without making a profit, right? If so, do you have a mold made? If not, you must factor engineering drawings to get one made into your mix. The Q then become, will it need one or is merely a fabric/textile type of concept that can be sewn by a contract manufacturer?

* You definitely do not attend an expo if you plan to take the licensing route, at least, not from what you've written thus far. There are going to be several decisions to be made based on which route you want to versus can afford to take. If you take the self-Venture route an expo may be correct - - > after you have available inventory (will you rent a warehouse to store it)? It goes without saying if you take the self-Venture route you have monies for packaging (usually the most expensive item toward establishing a future brand). You'll need a SKU, business/product insurance, marketing and business plan, distribution, shipping, handling of returns, warranties, etc which are some items that fall under the self-Venture route to reach the market.
* The licesning route is easier from one viewpoint since you need only one or two of the above. The hard part if finding a mfg willing to invest/partner in production and marketing on your behalf, then pay you royalties.

U: after I have a prototype?would that help?

* Would what help, hon? A prototype usually falls under elementary items (must haves) in phase one along with marketing research demonstrating how, when, where you or whomever (your investors?) will make money.

* From what I'm reading Marie, you are a long ways from the runway still in the garage miles away. Minimally one working proto would be needed if only by you to prove out your concept but more usual is many are made until one reaches perfection.

I suggest Marie you answer my question as to your location and let's get you connected to a nonprofit group, for starters. Draw a circle around your location and tell me which cities are around you.

Ta Ta

We have received "inquiries " re all the companies you mention + others - we are unaware of any Australian inventor achieving success through them, whilst although we do not say it is easy, we are aware that some inventors achieve success themselves.

This speaks for itself - an inventor is far more likealy to succeed on their own efforts with the right advice / mentoring, rather than expecting others to do it for them for a fee.

If inventors are considering using a promoter they should definately request varefiable references of success achieved for Australian inventors and then check those references.

Such references are generally refused - they claim confidentiality - they would, wouldnt they ? when they do not have any successes !

Ask yourself this - if a promoter had helped you to success wouldn't you agree to let them use you as a reference so that they can help another inventor succeed ?

Most would agree - very few inventors I have put this suggestion to said they would decline.

The problem for invention promotors is that they simply don't have A N Y successful clients
to ask or use as references .

For further help see our website :

Inventors Association Of Australia in NSW Ausinvent.

Stuart Fox

Secretary

Hi there Stuart you gave me a little advice a while ago and was wondering if you could help me.I have been to a patent attorney and he has advised me to have a provisional patent application filed. This would cost me around $2700, my question is do you know how I can have a search done (as the fee does not include one)because as I see it if I pay to have an provisional patent applied then find out later that my invention is already out there then wouldn't I have thrown away my money?Is the way to go having a search conducted first,then applying. Also do you know of any searches that I can conuct myself.I thankyou for your time.
Kind Regards Marie

Hi again I now have a prototype of my invention and it works great.I have given Royal the flick as I was bombarded with phone calls from them I just could not go through with any payments after I had been on your site.I have been to melbourne and had a meeting with Innovic who steered me in the right direction.I have just had a meeting with a patent Attourney and he said i should get a Provisional patent. he mentioned that my invention was an inovation and that I could get an inovation patent. Because you told me to do my homework and check thing out ,I have been checking out via Internet and I was wondering if I have Innovic do a search for me at a cost of $645.00 then apply for a inovation patent which are quick easy and last 8 years and can apply online,do you think that this would be the way to go . I'd like to thankyou for all your advice and will eagerly await your reply. kind regards Marie

PJ, can you give any advise on who to trust as far as submitting an idea to an (invention submission co.?)I'm glad I ran across this web site.I have been pulling my hair out trying to figure out who to go with.Does'nt look like any of them @this point!My wife is going to kill me or we are going to wind up divorced!!!Are there any good companies out there & who are they ?? Actually went to speak with an invention rep. yesterday,after all is said & done it will be 2 years of BS & can run up around $10.000- 20.000.Lost in roseville ca.....

Hi Greg,

You're funny! At least the way you write. From what you've written it would appear you went to "one of them" as the price quoted is about right. If you went to one of the big ones in San Francisco (there are two) who markets using a variety of different company names, you'd be in the right $ ball park.

Bet you'll find one of them on the Caution list over at www.inventored.org/caution/extreme (if you do not let me know at licensingguru@yahoo.com as there may be a new one opened I should know about).

Recently released under the Freedom of Information Act is more scum info:
www.inventored.org/caution/promoter-complaints

What you should be doing is a very comprehensive competitive analysis not just of similar products but of patents. You have to get to know the industry your concept falls under. What magazines target it? Is your concept covered under an issued patent? Do you have a working prototype? What will be the estimated cost to manufacture say 1000, 5000, 10,000 units? You have got to gather market research as a starter. Name your key competitors? (please don't say you have none otherwise I might think no one seeks them in the first place).

Stay in touch and good work on not getting reeled in!!!

PJ

HI IVE READ SOME OF THE THREADS IN HERE AND I THINK IT IS REALLY GOOD BUT I HAVE THE SAME PROBLEM LIKE THE OTHERS I HAD ROYAL INVENTIONS QUOTE ME TODAY WITH THE SAME RESPONSE OF THE OTHERS HOW IT IS GOOD IDEA AND MADE TOP 3 BUT BY READING THIS FORUM IT HAS REALLY THROWN ME I AM NEW TO THIS SEEN AND I WANT AN HONEST COMPANY TO HELP ME WITH MY PRODUCT CAN YOU HELP ME WITH SOME-ONE IN PERTH WESTERN AUSTRALIA.
THERE IS NO SUCH THING IN THE WORLD LIKE MY PRODUCT THROUGH MY OWN RESEARCH OVER 5 MONTHS
ITS A GOOD CONCEPT , CHEAP TO MANFACTOR SERVES A PURPOSE TO EVERYONE WORLDWIDE , I DONT HAVE A WORKING PROTOTYPE BUT COULD BE MADE IN A DAY IF NEEDED AND IS QUIET A PRACTICAL IDEA.
IF SET UP RIGHT COULD COST AS LOW AS $1.50 - $3.00 TO MAKE AND SELL FOR UPTO $20.00 OR MORE PLEASE HELP ME FIND THE RIGHT PERSON FOR THANKS

MIDSWAN1@BIGPOND.COM

Dear gd;

We just had a discussion on Royal. I have their contracts and paperwork and more importantly many emails from inventors all having virtually the same question as you.

I really do not have time to post the data I have been gathering for several years here, so I suggest you visit www.inventored.org which is a registered U.S. nonprofit offering vibrant discussions for inventors (nothing for sale and no commercial advertising permitted). In addition to the discussion (membership-only) groups the site has over 2000 educational pages with an index for ease of navigation.

I suggest you go to the subscribe link at :

http://inved.org/mailman/listinfo/inventors-l_inved.org

One of the volunteers will get back with you.

PJ

PJ, should of taken your advise & started out researching certain protocalls myself.But no I had to run out & make prototypes & find a patent attourney @ $300.00 an hour.Just to find out there are at least 4 other patent #'s for my type of idea.(which I found on the uspto site)Anyways I just put a stop payment on a $4000.00 check today.However my idea has merit to it in the fact is serves the same purpose as the others,It's just a diffrent design.I am really considering hanging this idea up due to the fact it is consuming my life !!! Obviously there are no gaurantees in this venture & I have no more support from my wife,she's had it with my B.S.Whats the deal with licencing new ideas?Who is trustworthy? Is there an inexpensive way to go?Still wanting to move ahead in roseville ca..

Hi Greg,

Thanks for stopping by. Yep, many inventors know what you mean for they too are slapping themselves for not letting their fingers walk across Google's search engine before they paid out monies.

Running out and making a prototype is "a good thing." Finding a patent attorney at such an early stage may not be.

Having four other patents within the field of your invention is okay as it demonstrates there is "some" competition. One problem might be finding too much competition such as when moving a new product into a marketplace containing big box names. More importantly, your combined invention elements and their performance should stand out amid prior art and physical products in the marketplace in terms of uniqueness, costing, etc.

Invention development can be a time-consuming enterprise but that is what separates artisans from the rest. Expect that any serious "venture" offers risk, it goes with the territory.

I often hear about wives not supporting husbands more so than the reverse. Bring home bacon and the viewpoint changes. If you've been a dreamer and never counterbalanced it, she is just frustrated at hearing about one more bright idea. Address what her real issues are and she might let up on you. You know the old maxim, one cannot control another's area only one's own. When she confronts what she doesn't want to confront, she will lighten-up on you - - I suspect. Here's the thing, if you have to have spiritual, emotional, or whatever type of support from outside your zone you've got a big problem that "you" need to address and solve. Inventing is a personal thing that goes on in one's mind, initially. You get support from fellow inventors and support groups and rarely on the home front - - unless you've had success and brought home the spoils to your mate.

Who is trustworthy? You should be. However, if you cannot trust yourself --which you obviously can't-- as you've thrown money at what may be an invention submission scammer, you'd best get to know who you really are in terms of your weaknesses in order to put control in on them. And by the way, stopping payment on a check in the presence of a signed contract could buy more trouble.

Is there an inexpensive way? In other words you've got a bright idea but are unwilling to take a risk? What is inexpensive to you I have no idea. What you could do is swing by your local library and start learning about the process and pitfalls. Or, you could join a local inventors group - especially if you require emotional support. Call a local at (916) 224-9076 to locate where its closest club is. Caution: even wolves in sheep's clothing hang out in/on the fringes of these groups. If you are asked to pay money (other than a small membership fee) whether it makes sense or not, do not until you really research the good, bad, and ugly of the person/entity. Most knowledge you need at this stage will be contained in a library. So, if you're told to buy this and that book and subscribe to this and that, get the titles/author names and go by your local library. One final major word of caution: there are two companies operating in your neck of the woods that would love to take your money. I won't name names at this point, suffice to say…if you're required to pay between $4,500 - $13,000 to a company either in full or in monthly installments, put the brakes on. More than likely you will find them at www.inventored.org/caution/extreme. If you do not, they may be on the stack to be added either to the above list or to the Watch list at www.inventored.org/caution/watch.

Take care.

PJ

Hello, i've just found this site and i can't believe all that i've read!!! My sister and i recently submitted our ideas to Royal, we recieved a call from them to say they had passed the evaluation stage and the company are interested in all ideas but want to concentrate on one in particular for now.. We have the production manager ringing us in a couple of days for further discussions.. What should we do?
We don't have any prototypes, as we honestly have no idea how to go about anything, plus their letter said we don't need them at this stage....
All ideas are really good, they don't exist, so the marketability would be excellant..
We live in Melbourne, Vic. Actually Royal is probably just a half hour drive away...
If we ask for all our info back is it going to cause problems?? What if they steal out ideas if we tell them we've changed our minds??
Can someone please HELP??? Advise please..
I've already posted this, i think i put it in the wrong forum... sorry..

Greetings,

U wrote: i've just found this site and i can't believe all that i've read!!!

* You should because this thread hasn't even scratched the surface.

U:My sister and i recently submitted our ideas to Royal, we recieved a call from them to say they had passed the evaluation stage and the company are interested in all ideas but want to concentrate on one in particular for now..

* Standard (they know inventors seldom have monies for one let alone more than one invention through them)besides which it has the ring of truth to it, to newbies such as yourself. Ask him if "marketing" is part of plan? When he says "yes" ask them if they write a "formal" marketing plan and if you get a copy!!) Thse outfits do not know how to write marketing plans, what they are is promotional outfits. They write a crappy publicity release then spam it to fax machines, editors, newspapers, mags, manufacturers (to meet their contractual obligations) some of whom may/may not be in your invention field (!!!) plus, many envelopes will be returned demonstrating lists they make up are not updated). Want to read what is one line of their contract? Here we go:

"Whereas, Royal is engaged in the business of assisting and aiding inventors in submitting ideas, inventions or products to industry in an attempt to market and to license them."
Did you spot the magical word? If not, it is "attempt." A weasel word that gets them out of doing and providinig anything meaningful.

The fee you should expect to pay is $12,950 - in advance, of course for....(quote) "submission to manufacturers, marketers, distributors, retailers, sales representatives with whom Royal makes contact and/or who contact Royal thorugh Royal's business associations, mailings, publicity, advertising, and attendance at trade shows, or business seminars. Clients invention is submitted on a confidential basis."

Did you catch the word "publicity" in the above? Like I said, they spam all the above. But the good news is the lists they've built over time are the same one's you can build. But not until you have something meaningful to demonstrate to a potential buyer/licensee. You see, Royal doesn't care if you have a prototype or if what you have works because all they do is mass mailings either via email, faxes, letters to John Doe etc. As to trade shows, you can attend those same trade shows witout spending money to exhibit. You walk the aisles with a brochure, business card and talk to companies yourself. Just to validate the above, in one line on the contract they state (quoet), "Royal will submit drafts of descriptive material to Clients for approval and/or revision suggsteions prior to printing, ,as and if required." Get the idea, it's that darn publicity release they'll have you look over. You go to a library and get a book on how to write a pubility release then do the same thing they will do!!!!!!

If you could read their contract you'd die at all the weasel words such as "may", "at its discretion", "attempt", "best efforts", etc.

Check this clause out, "Nothing in the agreement shall be construed as a representation, inducement, promise or guarantee that Royal will obtain any results, sales or licensing agreements for Client. Royal agrees only to use its best efforts to submit the Client's Invention to companies for the purpose of review and licensing....." [[[ Here's the kicker, you have no "invention!" All you have is an idea!!!! Yo have not "reduced it to practice" yet in the form of a prototype or drawings or something!!! You don't even know from a manufacturing viewpoint if it will work as you specify. Majority of "inventions" need tweaking from a machining viewpoint.]]]

My final words about their contact called a "Submission Agreement" is: it's written to protect them and not the client. It's a one-way contract - no rights or performance clauses or anything to protect a client!!! Good Grief anyone who signed it has to be nuts!

U: We have the production manager ringing us in a couple of days for further discussions.. What should we do?

* Get the actual facts straight from the get-go. Tell them you are without funds and would they be willing to fund production and "marketing" and make it on "the back end" out of sales and/or royalties. Give them a sob story and listen for what happens next. After the violins stop, get the salesman (or what we call 'front end closer') to agree the company "will" put up its cash and in exchange they will make a bundle especially since they have indicated all your ideas are good.

U: We don't have any prototypes, as we honestly have no idea how to go about anything, plus their letter said we don't need them at this stage....

* Look, a proof of concept is a must. Here's what you do - get a piece of kids toy clay and make a model!!! Or, "cannibalise". Buy from a thrift store or used clothing/appliances outlet products that have the components similar to yours. Take them apart and assemble them into a semi or fully phase one working prototype. One should always have a working proto as a proof of concept. So-called "invention marketing companies" discourage proof of concept because in many cases gizmos will not work the way the inventor envisions.

U: All ideas are really good, they don't exist, so the marketability would be excellant..

* Standard. There you go then, "marketability would be excellent" they say...so there is your "out" - because if it's that excellent they would be more than happy nay excited to get to work "marketing" something that only exists on paper. LOL! Try selling something that exists on paper to pay to me and you'll see how far you'll get with me. LOL! You are being royally stroked! (loving it no doubt).

U: We live in Melbourne, Vic. Actually Royal is probably just a half hour drive away...

* You could be door to them but if you have no money, you are of no interest to them or any of these types of "marketing" companies.

U: If we ask for all our info back is it going to cause problems??

* No, because you don't ask. The reason is that these companies will not return docs. In fact, when you tell them you have no money and want your docs back, whomever will tell you that they will let so-and-so know. From then on you will not be able to get a hold of your front-end closer because you no longer exist.

U: What if they steal out ideas if we tell them we've changed our minds??

* Outfits like this do not steal concepts on paper. They get thousands upon thousands of submission per year. They want money to keep their engines going. Below is what you do:

1. Move on.
2. Visit your local library (largest one), find books on the process sequence. You are missing a solid foundation from which to move from so are going to get your knickers caught up with the type of company that is looking for newbies such as yourselves.
3. Contact Alan Lovett, the Fringe Festival inventions coordinator at: (03) 9481 5111 or 0419 599 372 see who he can refer to you that does not expect monies up front.
4. Contact Ken Penaluna the National Program Manager for the Innovation Festival to see who he can refer you to that does not expect monies up front: ken@ausinnovation.org
5. Pick up educational literature at: The Institute of Patent and Trade Mark Attorneys of Australia (IPTA)1 Little Collins Street, MELBOURNE VIC 3000 -Ph: (03) 9650 2399
6. Go to the nonprofit site: www.ausinvent.com - and start reading and learning.
7. Go to www.ipaustralia.gov.au - start reading and learning.
8. Join a worldwide nonprofit inventors discussion group at: www.inventored.org Their free subscription page is at: http://inved.org/mailman/listinfo/inventors-l_inved.org (I think you'll even find Royal on their "extreme" caution list) at: www.inventored.org/caution/extreme

Do all the above then contact me. By the time you're done with the above, you should feel more grounded.
One doesn't rely on companies or persons for "grounding" who expect monies up front.

Here's a neat trick, ask your front-end sales closer what he thinks the annual sales projections might be for your invention (tell him to just guess, afterall he is an expert in the field of sales! LOL!) when he tells you x you say, well, I'm predicting its wholesale price should be x, so let me multiply that by your sales projections - (calculator time). Then you say, so that would equal x. Now you hit up Royal to put their monies where their mouth is. Afterall, the salesman has told you what a winner it is going to be.

Don't worry about angering these types of personalities, it won't happen. They will be gracious to the end. Then you won't be able to reach them.

PJ Ballou

P.J having read this thread i have put to bed nagging little complaints i had against Royal Inventions. i want to say thankyou for the valuable advice.

Brad

Hello,

I was told to provide them with $12 ooo and I almost did it, however my dad stopped me and made me look at something very important.... I was told to put in $12000 and apparently they were going to put in $36000 for the balance...
However.. On the basis that they make only %20 of all profits that would mean that if (as the inventor) I earnt back through royalties $30 000 (an amount estimated by Royal), in one year, approx double my original investment, how long would it take Royal to make back their original investment ($36000), let alone a profit.... Think about it...